Ubuntu is not ready for most, even from Dell
Dell has seen fit to equip some of its laptop and desktop offerings with one of the most popular versions (also called distros) of Linux being Ubuntu. I have said many times before one of the biggest challenges for Linux is to make things easy to install and configure. I know plenty of people that think doing so is hard in Windows and for them it would be impossible in Linux.
Andrew Kantor of USA Today says that “Linux isn’t just for geeks” but I beg to differ for one reason. Near the end of his post he talks about something that is completely alien to a Windows user, repositories and dependencies.
“Judging by a comment in an article written earlier this year about Cinelerra: “…installation is simple: I add the correct Cinelerra repository for my CPU, along with the Debian Multimedia repository, to my /etc/apt/sources.list file, then update and install Cinelerra.”
Yeah, okay… what? I don’t even care to understand what that means… why can’t I just install an executable or msi file and be done with it. Linux doesn’t work that way which is why it will never be ready for Joe Schmo user, not that Windows is easy for some people either but come on… I want double click installation files where I can click “Next, Next, Okay, Finish.”
Heaven help you if you want to install something that isn’t in the repository list which will require installation of a dependency and sometimes the dependency requires a dependency, isn’t that lovely? No, no its not.
Not to mention all the programs you have to choose from for playing video/audio files to text editing, it’s almost too much.
I have no doubt Dell will at least configure the installation of Ubuntu somewhat but it comes with a bunch of programs for doing one thing and many others can be downloaded.
Let’s try the Windows way. Say you want to install Limewire or Frostwire and have no idea what Java is or don’t know that Java is required for the program, during the installation, Frostwire/Limewire will pause installing, download Java, install it and configure it for use without you having to do a single solitary thing except click “OK” and “Next.” Linux needs to learn to do things that way or it will never be ready for… 90% of the population.
Not to mention how every single program on OSX or Windows has a far more polished feel to it and perhaps more usability as well, I don’t want to have to go through two different programs to do ONE thing.
Linux lacks polish, its programs lack polish, it’s free but as always is not worth it in my opinion. In my world there are only three operating systems, Windows XP, Vista and Mac OSX and it will always be that way.
There’s a program called EasyUbuntu that will install and configure some things for you but look at the command you need to run after downloading it, wget -q http://medibuntu.sos-sts.com/repo/medibuntu-key.gpg -O- | sudo apt-key add – oh yeah, that’s real intuitive. I wouldn’t even bother with it because of THAT, it’s insane. I guess it’s still easier than doing all of this separately but still… if you know that command by heart, something is really very wrong with you.
Linux needs to abandon command lines most importantly and make something like .exe files or .msi files and do away with repositories, dependencies, the whole system and start over.
Related Posts:
May 6th, 2007
Well if comes to a choice of “dumb-ing”(*making it more user-friendly for the politically correct*) the OS to make it more useful to people, to keeping it right (people may disagree with me here) – i guess if Linux wants penetration it will have to dumb it down. However, being an OS of choice in embedded environments, it may not really serve Linux’s purpose to dumb it down to a point where we start having all the problems that Windows has.
Strike balance b/w the two – and you can have an OS like MAC OS X, which would definitely remove the ground from under MS/Apple’s feet.
May 6th, 2007
I don’t think it’s fair to compare software for Linux in general to ones packaged for Windows. If a distribution doesn’t offer a simple way to install a package, then it should be considered missing from it(which isn’t good either tho). You could also say that software for Windows is horrible to install if you try to install all kinds of experimental software from source. There are also next-next-ok installers for Linux(autopackage) but most developers don’t package their software with it. Remember, Linux can do a lot of things, it is the developers who need to use it.
I don’t understand the part about polish because I haven’t noticed the lack of it in general in Linux software.
And regarding the command-line command you are horrified about, I agree it’s not one for the eyes of the beginner but it shouldn’t be of much trouble as one can and should just copy-paste it to terminal.
Overall you have used Windows and know how to deal with it when things go wrong. If you had used Linux and moved to Windows, you’d have lots to complain about it too. The whole “Linux isn’t ready for desktop”-thing seen a lot nowadays is very biased and is comprised of little real evidence(I think Win98 and Me certainly never were ready for the desktop but still a lot of people used them including me).
May 6th, 2007
dude…repositories are probably the best and easiest thing about linux…to download almost anything you really don’t need to add any repository at all…just open friggin synaptic (its GUI) and search for a program…say i want a text editor, then type “text editor” in the search box and ta-da you get a list of text editors…no searching around websites for it or trying to make it work with your system…if its in the repos its almost guarenteed to work
my problem with windows users saying linux is hard it that its really only hard if you expect it to be windows…90% of all windows users wouldn’t be able to make it very far in a mac either…i know my parents would be lost. If you expect it to be linux, then its almost as easy as anything else…its just different, not too much harder in the end. I kinda like the analogy that windows is like driving an automatic, while linux is like driving a stick.
think of it this way…if you grew up with linux and had to use windows, do you think it would be easy at first? youd have to search around for programs on the web, worry about virus software, go through the rather frustrating filesystem, would only have one desktop, would have to pay people money for the software…in the end you have been taught windows so you know windows, same as everyone else, but don’t say that because its what you know its better, because thats just technocentric
I’ve had just as many problems installing things in windows as in linux, if not more, and the example of limewire and frostwire downloading java in the middle of installation i find hilarious because thats one of the main problems with windows…its so prone to viruses because things like that happen so often
I’m not one of those linux people that cares about other people adopting linux…the fewer people use it, the fewer viruses are written for it (or so they say), as long as it keeps progressing I couldn’t care less.
May 6th, 2007
Most software does not need to be installed separately in most GNU-Linux distributions because they are installed along with the core-OS. Software that does need to be installed separately can usually be installed in a package manager, such as synaptic, searching the repository (windows users know how to use “find” right?), checking some boxes, and clicking “apply”. Removing software involves unchecking boxes.
Here are the steps in windows:
1. Search the internet.
2. Sift through malware and adware; close popups; look over shoulders for children (in case porn ads popup); avert eyes from porn ads that make it through ad blockers (or not, depending on taste)
3. Download candidate programs
4. Make sure antivirus programs are operating and up-to-date
5. Run the installer; reboot a few times; run the program; pray -even-the-non-religious-pray-when-using-windows- that the installer installed an uninstaller; uninstall the program (because it doesn’t quite do what we want or makes windows extra unstable); repeat for each candidate program downloaded
6. Shell out cash when the 3 day evaluation period ends (we’re doing this legally, right?).
7. Wonder whether credit card, banking, or other personal information is being sent to the software developers (with closed-source software)
8. “Forget freeware/shareware crap. Let’s buy some ‘real’ software.” Search internet for commercial software. Give credit card info to an online retailer. “Adobe Photoshop … $600 !? I can buy a new laptop for that. Must be real good.” “I have to type in a how-many-digit serial number?” “Online activation? Phoning home? What?” “They want my credit card number again?” “I can’t return the software because it’s been opened even though I can’t figure out how to use it and don’t want it anymore and it’s only been a few days since I got it?”
9. Reinstalls are like clockwork. Not only does windows need to be reinstalled, but each and every program that was previously installed also needs to be reinstalled. “Where did I put all of those serial numbers and activation codes?” “Hello, Microsoft. Yes, please please please let me reinstall Windows. Thank you thank you thank you. I worship the ground you tread upon for letting me use my computer again.”
10. Use FOSS software. Don’t have to worry about serial numbers and phoning home. Don’t have to grovel so much. Does what we need for the right price.
11. Realize that we’re using over 90% FOSS software.
12. One last straw before we either throw the computer out the window or install GNU-Linux.
Yes… Windows makes me think of polish, and GNU-Linux distributions should emulate Windows. WHAT!?
May 7th, 2007
Dear Mr. Schlaffer, I think that either someone payed you to write this piece of meaningless article or you’re just stupid … Sorry in advance for my rude behaviour but when somebody is reading your text he will surely curse you for the way you write. You just don’t have any understanding about open source least to say you’ve ever known OSes and software development … god save your soul!
May 7th, 2007
Some I agree with you *not much* others I don’t. I don’t get what you say about polish though. To me, kde and it’s programs are amazingly polished. Look at amarok? Can you get much better? I don’t know..to me linux programs are pretty great.
May 7th, 2007
“Yeah, okay… what? I don’t even care to understand what that means… why can’t I just install an executable or msi file and be done with it.”
Maybe you just have to stop writing about Linux? If you don’t even care to understand this os? Installing software the Linux way is much much more easy than installing software the MS way.
“I want double click installation files where I can click “Next, Next, Okay, Finish.”
You missed: “uncheck install yahoo toolba (recommended)r”, and off course, cleaning your pc with an antispyware and a virus-scanner on a regular basis, to remove the stuff that got installed without asking… Or are you the owner of that zombie pc that keeps spamming me?
May 7th, 2007
Actually I will go along with stumps, this article is very parcial and it seems to be written by someone that has not tested linux on his life. Instal Ubuntu, test it for a while and then write the article again.
Even though linux is an OS based on its command line, remember this OS comes from Unix, the UI of the desktop managers like gnome and KDE have grown a lot and are as or even more functional than the Windows interface.
I also agree with the one that mentioned that if you grew up with windows, migrating to another OS like Linux/MacOS will not be something easy. It will be even harder if you are not willing to do so, I think this is the case of the person writing.
Give Synaptics a try, its quite easy, even easier than the usual exe files from windows. You will be quite amazed.
I was quite amazed to find this article on the page, usually the level of what I read here is a bit better than this subjective point of view.
At last, I apology if there are any grammar or spelling mistakes on my comment, this is not my native language :)
May 7th, 2007
Hi,
In Ubuntu the installation process is very simple for FrostWire, it will automatically download and install Java for you if its not installed. You can do it with a GUI, or you can just type on your console:
sudo apt-get install frostwire
It will take care of all dependencies, it’s very polished, Windows should have a package manager so users don’t have to run around all over the place to get their software. In Ubuntu and debian based distros software installations are much simpler than in windows in most of the cases.
May 7th, 2007
“In my world there are only three operating systems, Windows XP, Vista and Mac OSX and it will always be that way.”
And computers won’t ever need no more than 258k ram right?
I’d shoot myself if I lived in your world.
May 7th, 2007
That article is very funny. I also grew up with Win and every time my friend spoke or showed me his Linux distro , I just escaped. I was actually scared of it.Why? Because of the old stereotypes “It’s hard and unfriendly to a user.It’s only for geeks”
Later on I made a decision,which I will never regret.I switched to Linux. And I was and still am impressed. It’s easy and fun to work with it.I’ve installed Linux to all my relatives and they’re happy.Also my parents which are 65 years old are using it without problems.And everything works and it’s stable.But the hardest for me was not the Linux it self , but the way how I was thinking—>Win way.And this is wrong.
The guy spoke about polish–>Hello? Anyone there? KDE is wonderful (Gnome users don’t be angry) , also other stuff like Amarok,Beryl…..It’s obviously the guy didn’t take enough time to really look in and at it.
This is the same like I just seat for half an hour in a car drive a little bit and than say it’s not good. You need to look inside,try stuff and so on and on….
And by the way Ubuntu is not the only distro out there.
So imagine :
In all major big computer stores you have laptops,desktop pc’s and so on. You come in and seat behind one. On it is installed Linux (whatever of the distro) and you start to work. The seller comes , explaines you a little bit about it and so on. The price is much much lower than MS preinstalled. He also shows you all other equipment like printers,scanners….all what works with Linux. And at the end you get a starter booklet+4 hours of free learning course. Now tell me, would it be than hard for people to work with Linux?
By my opinion what Linux needs is advertisement.
And when I go to buy myself a computer I want a freedom to choose!
May 7th, 2007
“Linux needs to abandon command lines most importantly and make something like .exe files or .msi files and do away with repositories, dependencies, the whole system and start over.”
Uh, isn’t that what .rpm and .deb files are? My wife’s laptop runs OpenSuSE 10.2. She downloaded Skype and double-clicked the downloaded .rpm. The YaST installer came up and informed that a few additional items will be installed. She clicks okay and voila Skype is installed. YaST took care of the dependencies even though the file was not from a repo. In Windows, when you install something, it installs this version of a DLL or that version of a DLL and quite often by installing one thing, something else stops working properly. In Linux we have dependencies and software is generally written so you don’t need to bloat your system with 20 versions of the same thing. You should do some research before writing a whole bunch of trash about something you obviously know little about.
May 7th, 2007
Honestly you could double click the package the author was talking about…You’d browse on the web to that package as it is listed in the repository and you’d download it and double click it…just like you would an MSI in Windows…and it would install after asking for your password.
So, you’ve brought up a moot point. just because the author of the article didn’t know enough to download and double click doesn’t mean there isn’t a way to do so.
May 7th, 2007
Why did you take the time to understand msi files, but not packages? Is it really better when you install the ATI drivers under Windows and it doesn’t work because you don’t have the .Net framework, but it wouldn’t tell you? That wouldn’t have happened with Ubuntu repositories.
This is definitely the most stupid article I’ve read in the last years. What’s dumber than to say, “I don’t understand it so it must go away”?. And why is your blog called “tech” when all you want is kindergarden IT?
May 7th, 2007
go back to windows. Linux doesn’t need sheep.
May 7th, 2007
Well said trashcat. I don’t know how many times I’ve wanted to install a program and laughed at how easy it was to install through synaptic or apt-get. Linux is different. thats why its fun. People don’t like change, and they suffer for it.
May 7th, 2007
THATS A VERY IGNORANT ARTICLE IM DISAPPOINTED IN YOU, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT A CENTRALIZED PACKAGE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM IS FAR SUPERIOR AND EASIER TO MANAGE AND UNDERSTAND THAN INDIVIDUALLY MAINTAINED PACKAGES SUCH AS WINDOWS USES….GET A CLUE WILL YA!
May 7th, 2007
I have been using linux for three days. I have firefox, thunderbird and everything else i need set up and running great. Like everyone says, synaptic does it all for you, click and go. I have even started to use the command line, it tells you what else needs to be installed to make it work and asks if you would like to install them aswell. SO much easier letting the computer do all the work instead of running around the net looking for things. I don’t have to worry about virus attacks and spyware. And all this for FREE. Like the others say use it for day to day tasks before putting it down. I think it’s great.
May 7th, 2007
Again, another novice posts a computer article. Let’s go back to the days of DOS 1.0. Anyone remember how much of a pain in the ass it was to install a print driver and get it to actually work? Remember flipping all those pin switches on the printers looking for the perfect combination? How about installing a mouse? In no conceivable way is Ubuntu that difficult, yet we made it through DOS and look where we’re at now. I just switched my mom from Windows XP Home to Ubuntu. She’s 64 years old and not very computer literate. Ubuntu has not crushed her brain with insurmountable difficulty.
Please, get people that know at least a “little something” about computers to post articles here.
May 7th, 2007
I build gaming systems from scratch so I’d like to think I know a tiny bit about computers. I think “Linux novice” would be more appropiate… if you’re going to call me a novice about anything.
Well… I’d like to see one of you get my wireless card and graphics card working in Ubuntu… without resorting to the command line… I’m just giving up… actually, gave up a long time ago.
May 7th, 2007
From what I gather from your article, you are saying that it would be a bad thing that computer users are actually computer literate. Learning how to add a repository is not difficult, but it is outside the realm of a typical Windows user’s frame of reference. Learning how to add the repository is not bad, it makes the users better users because they are more self reliant. When you say Ubuntu (and thus Linux) is not ready for users, I say it is users with attitudes like yours that are not ready for Linux.
May 7th, 2007
You sir are a moron.
The objections you present remind me of a 7 year old child.
“I don’t care how it works, I just want it to work.”
Some people keep this mindset their entire life and end up working at Waffle House. Behold the glory of the the human race, we’ve become too stupid to care about anything as long as “it works”. Ignorance in such a method in the past has lead to tyrants and people being enslaved. This will be the future of our species.
May 7th, 2007
*agrees* the linux crowd can call it ‘dumbing down’ all they want but when it comes right down to it 90% of the computer population is ‘dumb’.
May 7th, 2007
I love linux, but I totally agree with the author. You can write all the sh#t you want about how lame the article is. Ultimately, public acceptance of linux as a viable desktop OS and an alternative to MS and Mac with disprove your objections to the article.
May 7th, 2007
If I double click on a .deb file in ubuntu, it just installs. And, the package managers seem to do just fine at resolving and installing dependencies every time I install anything .
It doesnt sound like you even tried to use it.
May 7th, 2007
I’ve never actually come across a .deb file… nor have I spent enough time with it to know all the Linux file extensions either. It’s fine if what you need is actually in the package managers but sometimes it’s not and that’s where the pain is.
May 7th, 2007
Are you feeling so proud resuming yourself at point-and-click when teenagers get to learn to know how to administer a system using linux (and windows or Mac) brilliantly? Linux gives first hand computer literacy (literally) a great deal of education, a fountain of knowledge.
“…where I can click Next, Next, Okay, Finish” is all that you need to know and do? I wouldn’t be as proud to brag about it unless I was born mentally retarded and all I can do for a living would be dishwashing in a restaurant or clean restrooms in a hospital.” Sorry to be forced to get that opinion on you based on your remarks.
I bet you do not even read the EULA (”Okay, Finish”) then next time you get the chance maybe join the crowd suing Microsoft for deceptive practices.
May 7th, 2007
Ignorance is Microsoft’s best friend. Others have mentioned how Synaptics takes care of users needing to worry about dependencies. It also updates all the packages installed on the system, not just the OS. Your article does nothing but expose the lack of basic experience in the subject. Enjoy inflexible sheephood.
May 7th, 2007
Jonathan,
Sorry to say it but I think you may have offended some people ;)
They have a few good points though, you know… Try using Ubuntu before you bash it, try the “Add/Remove…” option in the “Applications” menu, try downloading a .deb package before insisting that (Ubuntu) Linux needs to implement MSIs and such.
Maybe you didn’t notice, but because of the Ubuntu software repository architecture, ALL of my software is updated every few days by clicking a little orange icon in my system tray… and it won’t automatically reboot my system in 5 minutes if it updates the kernel. Windows, on the other hand, has a way of annoying all of the users of the workstations I support, who complain that they lose their work or are surprisingly disconnected every time Windows is updated. Not only that, but if an update to Adobe Photoshop or some other software is released, it’s not integrated with Windows Update, which further complicates the process of maintaining a system.
Good luck in your closed-source world. When the badware gets to you, we’ll be here to help you switch to a less vulnerable alternative.
May 7th, 2007
Jonathan, I would partially agree with your article. Unlike some of the other folks who’ve responded here, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with criticizing Linux or Ubuntu. Criticism is actually heard in the Ubuntu community. But, as others have mentioned, Linux is different than Windows and using it does require patience and a bit of learning.
If you remember Windows from back in the mid-nineties, installing new hardware could be difficult because of IRQ conflicts and a whole bunch of other problems. I believe Linux is still at this stage because its users are so technically inclined. Ubuntu is really the first distro aimed at the home desktop user that has the ability to make an impact on the market; and in a few years, I imagine that Ubuntu will become more much user-friendly and more polished.
One of the most wonderful things about Linux, and Ubuntu in particular, is the community. This is something completely foreign for the Windows user. In Windows, you’re purely a consumer. In Ubuntu, you’re not just a consumer, but also a developer, a critic, and a fan. As Ubuntu gains more steam, I suggest you give it another try.
May 7th, 2007
Some of you are a bit overly defensive if you ask me. Coming from a completely windows world..linux can take time to get use to. I remember it being hard for me, years ago when I first tried SuSE (a very old version).
None the less…he does bring up some points. If DELL is going to sell linux PC’s to average joeschmo users, then one would hope that an average joeschmo user could use the OS they are provided with. Granted, Ubuntu and Kubuntu are pretty damn simple..but still, to really get down to the level of an average user, there still needs to be work done.
However, the poster is pretty ignorant to the issue. Whenever you try new things, you need to expect a few issues and obstacles to overcome. It’s like a windows user to the Mac OS X. There are some huge differences, and it would take time to get use to it. Just because you run into some issues, doesn’t mean the OS is bad, just that you’re inexperienced and need to give it more time and work.
May 7th, 2007
Ok… you have NOT used Feisty… double click on an MP3 and it will automatically install for you de codecs… the same for the drivers(ummm… Windows do that?)
May 7th, 2007
Seriously man, use it for a bit, then complain. It’s true, some hardware manufacturers just dont put in the time to ‘certify’ their products for Linux, much less develop drivers for them. In that case, its a bit of a chicken and egg problem because they dont want to do it for a system that has relatively few users, and there are few users because these manufacturers don’t write drivers for linux. One of the biggest points about Dell shipping linux will be that the components they use will actually work with linux. You, then, will have no such problems as wifi/graphics card not working. It would be unfair to blame Microsoft if some new hardware company came out and made a device for which they didn’t supply windows drivers. It wouldn’t ‘just work’ on Windows either. You’d blame the device maker, not Windows. Please read all of the above comments, there’s quite a bit of useful information in them. You would be much more respected if you gave a topic some honest research or a fair chance before you wrote about it.
May 7th, 2007
What if they have to reinstall… is Dell going to use only Ubuntu supported hardware, or are they going to not and provide a driver CD… maybe they’ll do the whole restore partition thing. What if something breaks on Ubuntu… that requires going into the command line… there are a lot of “what ifs” if you ask me and Dell isn’t going to support Ubuntu… that leaves what… searching or posting on forums…
I’ve never dealt with manufacturer support so I have no firsthand idea how good or bad it is. I can solve my own problems on Windows.
May 7th, 2007
What are these .exe files people keep talking about in Widows. I haven’t got time too understand them. What about all these .dll files do they have dependency problems is their some automated management for them in Widows or can they get messed up when I install a package or what ever you call it in Windows?
What if something breaks and I can’t repair it as their is no command line. No hang on I heard the terminal or command console was one of the few things they got right in Vista. Anyway what do I do if something breaks in Windows.
I’ve never dealt with manufacturer support so I have no firsthand idea how good or bad it is. I can solve my own problems on Linux.
OK enough of the satire.
Listen you moron. Dell is not going to support Ubuntu, it is contacting it out to Canonical. So there will be support.
May 7th, 2007
I imagine Dell is going the system restore CD route. What happens when something breaks in Windows and Joe Six pack can’t boot? How to you solve your problems in Windows? Do you search on the net? Why don’t you mess with Ubuntu before laying your ignorance out in cyberspace. By the way, you can stick a Feisty disk in the CD and have a fully functioning Live Linux system. I’ve rescued a lot of data from NTFS disks that way. You can’t do that with any version of Windows.
May 7th, 2007
Yes, but the support has to be purchased separately… I forgot to mention that.
May 7th, 2007
please label this blog article flamebait
May 7th, 2007
That’s true, I’m not saying that Linux DOESN’T have any uses at all, I’m saying it has no place on most desktops or laptops. It’s great as a server OS (not Ubuntu…), it has some usable recovery utilities but there’s also another way to rescue data… image the windows drive every few days… have a backup drive and disc image, though that’s preemptive… preemptive solutions are the only way to be sure.
As for the Live systems and installs go, I’ll say it again, my wireless card(s) have never worked.
May 7th, 2007
I read through most of the replies and I think people have pretty much dissected your article and hit most of the main points… so I’ll summarize what I think:
1) Your arcticle is written from the viewpoint that the way Windows does things is right/better… which is just wrong. Of course you would think repositories are bad… with your viewpoint any other OSes way of doing things is “wrong”. If you really want to talk about dependencies then you’d better go learn how they work. As many people have already said… the current graphical package managers make software installation point-n-click for the vast majority of software that a “joe schmo” user needs. Very little Widows software will automagically download and install its dependencies. Instead a lot of times the dependencies are bundled with the program, especially the libraries. Then you end up with two programs that need the same library, but use different versions, stomping all over each other. What next “Blue Screen of Death”. Ever wondered why as you install more software on a Window’s box it gets more and more unstable ?
2) The system of dependencies was a pain at first when there wasn’t any programs to help you navigate the repositories. Now that there are a number of text and graphical based package managers the dependencies system shows its true strength. I pull my software from three or four repositories that work together to ensure their packages are compatible with each other. Ninety percent of the time if I want a program I just search the repositories “yum search ” to get the package name then “yum install ” and I’m done. By the way… all of that could also have been done using a GUI tool.. no command line. Everything I need for that program to work is automagically downloaded and installed for me. This only works BECAUSE of the dependencies system. If I want to remove some package I can find out ahead of time what other programs might be affected. How many times have you been uninstalling a Window’s program and it says “This might also be used by other programs, are you sure you want to remove it?” Have you EVER known if it was safe to say yes or no? On Linux machines I can know exactly what those “other programs” are and make an intelligent decision.
3) You hate command lines… I love them.. Neither is wrong but its what we are used to. In the Windows world I’m out of luck… I have NO choice. If the GUI doesn’t do something I want it to, oh well too bad for me. In the Linux world we both have a choice. Both GNOME and KDE now have extensive GUI-based system configuration tools. As a “joe schmo” user you can manager your machine without EVER typing one command in a shell. At the same time I can push all of the GUI tools aside and manage everything from the command line. Choice… thats what the open source movement brings and it gives control back to me… the user… where it should be. You can go on having Microsoft feed you whatever drivel it sees fit to dish out… and make you pay for it everytime. I’ll take my choice and power any day of the week !!
4) The open source community is not going to just abandon all the innovation that has happened over the years and make all the software immitate Windows. That would be rediculous. What desktop Linux will do is continue what Apple has been doing over the years. Educating users about the weak, unimmaginative way Windows handles computing. I moved a friend from Windows to MacOS a few years back. At first she was scarred and very much the “fish out of water”. Many times whe called me us asking for help that first two weeks simply because her powerbook didn’t do things the “Windows way” so she way confused. Once I got her to let go of how Microsoft conditioning and accept that the “Microsoft way” isn’t necessarily the best way she was off to the races. By the end of the month she new more about MacOS than I did !! And she was permanantly hooked.. whe couldn’t believe how easy things were and she finally understood how much the “Microsoft way” had been holding her back!! Linux desktop will offer new and innovative ways of interacting with a computer and further free people from Microsoft’s clutches.
5) Oh and by the way… did you notice how Windows is becoming increasingly more like MacOS and Linux? How may UI features does Vista steal from MacOS? And what about the addition of actuall access controls (a staple of Linux/UNIX OSes) so users can’t just do anything they want to the OS thereby shooting themselves in the foot? It seems to me even Microsoft is starting to realize that the “Microsoft way” never was very good anyhow !! I wouldn’t be surprised to see dependencies and repositories added to Windows soon.
Overall it is sad to see people who are supposed to have a clue just spout the same olde Microsoft inspired FUD over and over and over.
May 7th, 2007
I can image my install as well. You’re getting so much grief because you are throwing your uninformed opinion out there. I’ve had many pieces of hardware that either didn’t work fully or conflicted with another item in Windows. Linux has it’s drawbacks, just like any OS. I had issues with my Broadcom based wireless. My wife has an Intel pro wireless that worked flawlessly. A live CD wouldn’t work with mine, it did with hers. Did your Microsoft Live CD work with your wireless? There are literally hundred of thousands of people using Linux on desktops and laptops. They can’t all be geeks. Your inflexibility and inexperience with the subject matter is what sticks out.
May 7th, 2007
Microsoft doesn’t have Live CDs… only installers… and yes, my wireless cards worked flawlessly after I installed Vista.
Let me restate this point, the package managers are GREAT if they have what you need… it’s a pain if they don’t…
Yes, I’m inexperienced with Linux because I lack the patience to figure out WHY they aren’t working, if it takes me more than fifteen minutes, I’m done… generally it doesn’t take me longer than that in Windows to figure out MOST problems… at least most hardware and/or driver related issues.
Mainly because without wireless working in Linux, I can’t connect to a network unless I string a LAN cable and that’s not going to happen.
May 7th, 2007
And you think you don’t pay for support on Windows software? C’mon how naive are you? It’s built in to the price, the VERY high price, and you have NO CHOICE. You pay whether you need support or not.
And it’s usually terrible, and for a very short time. Ever tried calling Microsft support? Don’t bother – I’ll save you hours on hold: REBOOT!
OOOh too hard to pay separately.
Sorry but learn something before writing such inane stuff.
You build gaming systems? So? I taught my son to build PC’s when he was 8 years old. And that was when they actually were a challenge. Remember when disk drives had separate controller cards? Printers did too? Serial ports and sound etc. were not built into motherboards? When CDROMS were connected to the sound cards, not the motherboard? And you had to manually set the IRQ jumpers on every card and make sure they didn’t conflict. You DO know what an IRQ is don’t you?
Sorry, if just building game systems makes you think you are technically literate you are so sadly mistaken. Any 12 year old can do that now. Oh. How old are you? I may owe an apology.
Also when something so simple as software installation in Linux defeats you, it proves you have no technical skills at all because one necessary technical skill is perserverence. Edison did not become great by giving up after his first or first couple of dozen bulbs failed to work,
You will definitely get nowhere in the technical world, so keep writing comedy. And I mean it because if you worked for me and gave up so easily on a task, you would no longer work for me, period. And the same goes for any other employer.
May 7th, 2007
As you say Jonathon “I can solve my own problems on Windows”. But what about the rest of us who are totally stymied by the boot up blue screen of death or “Can’t find Windows installer” message. How on earth do we normal users who haven’t got a MSCE get help for these common Windows problems?
Re-installation losing all our extra installed programs is the only option without paying a MSCE $100 per hour.
When Linux fails to boot properly it drops one into the command line. One should remember that the command line was the only interface when Unix was used by clerks and engineers at AT&T to perform their office and information processing tasks, and anyone who has read the AT&T Unix user manuals will realise that one didn’t need more than a school leaving certificate to understand the hows and whys.
This was because the writers of the command line tools made sure that they kept each tool as simple to use as possible and provided a non programmers shell to glue it all together. They also provided “learn” a terminal based learning program to teach the use of the tools. Like learning anything new, it usually takes about 3 months before one feels comfortable, but then one has enough experience to be creative.
If school leavers back in the 70s could learn and use the Unix shell with only a terminal interface, how much easier a learning path do you think that today’s students with GUI interfaces, GUI text editors and Linux documentation in HTML format, will have. No wonder most of the responses to your article were full of angst.
Maybe when one has invested so much time and energy in understanding how to fix the poor man’s rendition of an ’80s Unix technical GUI colour workstation that Wintel pretends to be, learning something that does sucessfully emulate that ’80s peak, could lessen your knowledge to the point where you would feel chagrin at what could be wasted effort in the face of current Linux market growth.
Take heart, dear Wintel expert, the game is rapidly changing at long last. New hardware innovations like the Cell architecture will bring long awaited speech and 3D interaction to the personal interface, a distributed redundant peer to peer network, and the role of server farms, and, software innovations like Second Life and WoW will let you do all your presentations to a cyberspace audience, so you can leave this clunky last century PC interface back in the annals of history where it should have gone at least 15 years ago if it weren’t for the success of marketing old technology vs technological improvement.
As a last word, I suggest you get VirtualBox for Windows and install a Live Linux CD, save a snapshot state and use a GUI terminal to start learning the shell and its tools, and the file tree before your next foray into Linux. At least then you will have some knowledge to equal your Windows experience and can make relatively unbiased opinions.
May 7th, 2007
My god! Are you so resolute in holding up your wifi card problem you won’t look past the end of your nose? What computer do you have? Have you even tried finding out what wifi card it is? And if you throw up “I shouldn’t have to know!” as a refute, well that’s where you would have to pay some one wither you were working with Windows or Linux. If you don’t want to know how to use your computer, you are going to have to pay someone else to fix it for you. As we can see you probably already do pay Microsoft but that’s your choice. I use Linux, and I change my car’s oil. You can pay if you like, but it’s my computer and my car.
May 7th, 2007
your article was a little off the mark where installing programs is concerned. let me illustrate a point. installing applications on ubuntu is better than windows. in windows can i use the command line to search a repository of applications, find the one i want by typing in a name that is close to what i want and install it for me? nope. and once i get an app installed on windows will the operating system tell me if there is an update somewhere? nope. what if there is a security patch needed for that application? will i be notified in windows? nope. ubuntu does all of those things.
you claim that ubuntu needs .exe files. what about .deb files (or rpm files on red hat, suse, or mandriva) or autopackage files. did you forget to mention these or did you not know that they existed.
i think any new ubuntu user needs one link and one link only to get started with it. the ubuntu guide.
you know what? if you think you only have the aptitude to use windows then please stick with it. you wouldn’t have anything in common with a linux user. we have gotten smarter from moving away from windows.
peace.
May 7th, 2007
“In my world there are only three operating systems, Windows XP, Vista and Mac OSX and it will always be that way.”
wouldent it be nice if we all lived (in our own little worlds) and never had to deal with reality, educate yourself before spewing this garbage uppon the masses, some other poor uneducated schmuck might actually buy into your closed minded beliefs!!!! theres a reason things are the way they are, i’m sure that in your opinion you would love Linux to have a windows like registry too! crash frequently, spew data everywhere causing a defrag every couple days to a week…… hell, why not clone your precious windows and give it to you for free! wouldn’t that be nice? an unstable virus friendly free operating system……… sorry for being so cruel dude but you never gave it a chance! ever try a .deb file automatic instalations ….. automatix2 or synaptic……… automatic installers….. hell theres a front end for apt get ON THE START MENU0!!!!!!!!! seriously do your research
May 7th, 2007
Okay lets be good to Jonathan. I mean the guy has pointed out some of th e ‘problems’ or ‘uncomfortabalities’ that are forcing the users to stay out of linux. I guess he is really annoyed and pissed at Linux and we shall let him talk about it openly.
Linux requires patience and needs considerable knowledge of os architecture and computer geeks often take such things for granted. Somebody just starting the computer will find Windows much more pleasurable experience as compared to getting stuck with graphics card drivers. Ubuntu is in the right direction and they will take another 3 years to become a fully ‘operational’ desktop for endusers (i mean starters). Once that is done, Desktop Linux will do to Desktop Windows what it did to Server side of Windows.
On the side note: Why Linux dudes get so excited if someone just says a word for the love of M$ Windows? It just comes to me that linux has more to do with building a community with growing hate towards windows.
Linux can live without ‘hate’ of windows…. I think i shall write something on this one ;)
May 7th, 2007
ohh boy, are you kidding?
These statements are a totally crap, you don’t know what are you talking about.
Please stop making FUD and behave like a microsoft shill.
There are graphical interfaces to acomplish software instalation tasks in linux.
Go home and try a mandriva spring live CD.
May 7th, 2007
So, let’s install four versions of the same program to let all .exe works… or even better let’s install one app that installs a new one that doesn’t work with the old programs…
let’s search all the web to find an app that do what you want to do… or you can do the linux way… use one program to search programs, you are one click away of a lot of programs.
May 7th, 2007
“In my world there are only three operating systems….and it will always be that way.”
How you come to that assumption or it is your personal motto ?
Oh boy,it’s looks like crap.
May 7th, 2007
This guy is right.
I’ve been a slack user for about 10 years. I was happy to hear about Ubuntu, how it was “easy”, etc. So I tried it dual-booting with win2k on my laptop.
The wireless just wouldn’t work. I checked the Ubuntu forums to find hundreds of people with similar problems. This is what a TYPICAL user should need to know to set up their wireless – assuming they’re NOT using DHCP: IP address, gateway, mask, DNS servers. Pop it in and go, like Windows. But no. The suggested fixes were to execute odd commands at the command prompt and hack at text files.
No thanks. I’ve been doing that for 10 years, but now have kids, a house, in short a life; I can’t blow hours on end getting stuff to work that should just work.
Linux is FAR from ready for real-world desktops. Elitist geeks with lots of free time, yeah. But no, not for real-world users.
May 7th, 2007
If I gave my granny 2 fresh PCs without any operation system on them. and a windows and an ubuntu cd.
I think she will probably find out how to install ubuntu, because of the liveCD and all the helpfiles there. if it’s installed almost everything works out of the box. newest nvidia-drivers just 2 clicks away without using a browser or commandline. Codecs for video and audioformats are downloaded if you try to play them.
Ok, now Windows. Installation is easy ok, but after you got the system installed, what now? How would my granny now she must go to the nvidia page to get the drivers? soundcard is not working without drivers, wlan needs it drivers, printer needs drivers, you cant read PDFs out of the box. no office suite installed, no multiprotocol instant messenger (no one i know uses msn), no irc client, no dictionary installed. If i want to watch videos i need a friggin codec pack!?!
“bla bla but there are driver cds if you buy a pc” well thats true, but they are NOT part of windows.
A clean Windowsinstall lacks most programs someone need to just use the pc for chatting, real voip (ekiga), office stuff and playback of videos.
if you need a multiprot messenger you need to google/surf the web
if you need a office suit you have to pay/google/surf the web
if you want a voip softphone you have to pay/google/surf the web
if you want to play multimedia you have to google/surf the web
if i want a decent packaging tool for multivolumes you have google/surf the web.
if you want a burning suite you will have to pay/google/surf the web
and if you surf the web you will always be in danger of getting malware. the repositories are clean! the Add/remove software menu is well made. the are big shiny icons which are named after the sections (office,tools, educations, games, multimedia etc…)
you don’t need to worry about malware as they are not wide spread and can’t harm the system because of it’s multi user architecture.
sudo > uac
if you think sudo is not user friendly guess what! Mac OSX is using sudo too! surprise!
May 7th, 2007
*.deb = *.exe in some maner. But if you can’t click on add/remove > type in RSS > checkmark it> click on install, then there is no hope for ya.
May 7th, 2007
Jonathan,
I find your choice of a Cinlerra install interesting. I used to run an IT department, and one of our central activities was video production (the others were e-learning and b2b sites). We were a Microsoft shop and our video work was done with Adobe Premiere on Win NT/2000. I grew up on Windows, 3.1, 95, NT, 2000, XP, so I have *years* running, supporting, and building for the Win platform.
Your article is unfortunate and largely wrong, but it is outstripped by your personal attitude. If you believe there are “only three” operating systems, then why are you writing an article about Linux?
There are so many mistatements and inconsistencies in your article you really should pull it.
You start with the title that “Ubuntu is not ready for most, even from Dell”, yet your example of how hard it *can* be to install software is a *professional* level video editing packages, one that allows you to batch que jobs and run an entire rack of servers as a render farm. This is a piece of software that 2% of the population would be interested in, there are several consumer based editing packages a couple clicks away in Synaptic. What are you doing? By the way getting Premiere to run and stay running _was_a_horror_. This was a piece of software that had full support from the application provider, every hardware manufacturer, and the OS provider, and it was an order of magnitude more difficult than the effort required for Cinlerra.
You mention your wireless card not working out of the box, a wireless card that the manufacturer wrote a Windows driver for but wont even *release the specs* so *somebody else* can write a Linux driver *for them, for free*. By your rational if you can’t use that wireless card on OSX then it’s not a *real* OS or ready for the masses either.
““Judging by a comment in an article written earlier this year about Cinelerra: “…installation is simple: I add the correct Cinelerra repository for my CPU, along with the Debian Multimedia repository, to my /etc/apt/sources.list file, then update and install Cinelerra.”
Yeah, okay… what? I don’t even care to understand what that means… why can’t I just install an executable or msi file and be done with it.”
How can you be writing for a tech blog? How can you presume to write about technology *you don’t understand* ?!?
The quote you cited as an example of a “problem” is two cut and pastes into a GUI, and after that the system will install with *two* clicks the program and *all* dependencies. Additionally from that point forward it will automatically tell you when there is a new version available and with one click install it and *all new dependencies* for you. This updating/install software does this *for all software on your system*. It’s like the equivalent of “Windows Update” for every piece of software you ever install on your system and 98% of possible software that the average user would ever want to install.
Honestly, this is such a willfully ignorant piece. Are you aware OSX has neither msi’s or exe’s? So it also must not be ready for the masses?
Look if a GUI with thousands of applications one click away is to challenging for you take a look at cnr.com, this is a web front end for the same apt/deb system but it has pretty pictures and end user descriptions with ratings. It’s still the same one click to install software, but maybe the presentation will be less scary to you.
You mention “Easy Ubuntu” but the better program is Automatix, no command line required. Download the deb install with graphical package manager, and 99% of the apps that the average person wants but aren’t included by default are once again on click away in a GUI.
I can’t imagine you do much in Windows either with how you portray it, I have been employed supporting Windows users, apps, and networks and it is a constant treadmill of challenges. Challenges that 90% of users are hopelessly unable to solve. One of the main benefits of Linux boxes is that they just keep running without degrading over time like Win installs.
You could write a piece about the remaining pain points in Linux, it might have been interesting if you had tried, but this is uninformed nonsense.
Regards
Clifton Hyatt
May 7th, 2007
I choose cross platform programs whenever possible, this way I don’t have to worry which OS I am on. You know, Firefox, Thunderbird, Gimp, Gaim, OpenOffice, Pan, Azureus, Limwire, etc. You people can argue over which OS is best, but my software runs on all of your OS’s.
When people said Linux was hard five or ten years ago, I agreed. However, open-source has made so much headway that I honestly believe anyone who says Linux is hard these days has very little credibility. It shows you haven’t really used Linux. Anyone who actually uses Linux knows it’s not that hard. It might be a completely different system than Windows, but that doesn’t make it hard. Solving partial differential equations or trying to understand a women, now those are hard!
May 7th, 2007
Installing software on Linux (such as Ubuntu) is FAR easier than on Windows. You start up the Synaptic application, and get a huge list of software you can install. You choose the one or ones you want, click Apply, and they get installed a few seconds later. You can also de-select software you no longer want and it gets removed (and in Linux, they REALLY get removed, leaving no DLLs and stuff all over the place). If it needs to install any other software, such as Java or some libraries, it will do so automatically, pausing only long enough to inform you. You don’t even have to worry about which website to download it from, or if it’s on the CD or not. Moreover, you can be assured that it will not install spyware, adware, it will not stop functioning after 30 days, and you don’t have to supply your email address or any other personal details to anyone.
What gives some people the impression that Linux is more difficult is that it ALLOWS you to do more than Windows – and that extra stuff requires some learning. For instance, if you want the ultra-latest, bleeding edge version of KDE you have to add one line to a text file (you are told which line, and which text file). If you don’t feel confident doing things like that, it’s unlikely that you’ll want to be testing the latest beta versions anyway. Incidentally, for every scary command-line task in Linux, there’s an equally scary delve into the registry editor in Windows. HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Crashes\Frequency anyone?
May 7th, 2007
Installing software on Ubuntu Linux is 20 thousand times easier than on windows. I don’t have to search the whole internet to find a program that does something simple and should be able to get for free instead of for $90. All I have to do is click a checkmark and hit OK.
And the software doesn’t come in broken crappy free “lite” editions that don’t do what I wan’t either.
I admit having the possibility to do what you want with your computer is overwhelming when you come from a restrictive environment and have been brainwashed with years of Windows Bullshit. However, the main reason I think you are completely wrong is that I’ve found on a preinstalled Ubuntu Box, less tech inclined people do much better than they do with windows.
May 7th, 2007
By the way, apparently you didn’t know what a *.deb file was…. really, you are making uneducated statements.
However, I would like to illustrate something: The install process for windows XP on my laptop:
Windows:
Use windows disks. Install windows. Sit there while is shuttles randomly around CD. Takes about 45-1:15 minutes. Boot up. Discover that my wireless drivers, network drivers, and graphics card drivers are not installed and that my display is at some crazy low resolution. Go to another computer and download said drivers. Takes forever. Install said drivers. It’s now 3 hours later. At this point I at least have wireless and the correct screen resolution. Now I have to install software.
That means searching the internet, finding the websites for gimp, firefox, inkscape, media player classic, vlc, gaim, a free antivirus, a free program freeware CD burning app, and so on. Install those, after finding them somewhere on the net. Then install MS office. Then I have to hack my theme file DLL so I can have a nice theme. At that point I have to install MS office. It’s now at least 6 hours later (optimistically) and my system is finally near usable…. hopefully….
Installing Ubuntu:
Use CD. Hit install. Browse internet while it installs. Enter my setup info. 21 minutes later, have a Live usable system. Only need to install a couple custom themes and beryl, inkscape, k3b, xine, vlc, maybe flash player, nexuiz and open arena. I have nice internet here, so that’s done in less than 15 minutes. My computer is now ready to go.
Basically, considering that one option is faster, easier, more stable, and free I don’t really understand why the average user wouldn’t want to use it… unless they are really brainwashed MS sheep being stupid and spreading FUD.
May 7th, 2007
Linux is not for everyone, it was never meant to be. It is for me, and it’s clearly not for you.
MS Dos is for people who want to know why their computer doesn’t work
MS Windows is for people who don’t want to know why their computer doesn’t work
MacOS is for people who don’t want to know why their computer works
Linux is for people who want to know why their computer works
May 7th, 2007
This blogpost is a joke right? Linux is not Windows and hopefully it never will be. If you want MS Windows; don’t use Linux. To say that it’s “not ready” is just plain stupid and ignorant.
May 7th, 2007
Wonderful example of selective citing. You make sure you pick an application that isn’t in the repositories of the distribution in question to make installation sound really hard.
In truth, most software that most users want is already in the official repositories of the major distributions. This means that all you need to do to install it is run the software installer, search for the appropriate app name, and hit ‘install’. This is in actual fact *faster* and *simpler* than the tiresome Windows installation processes which feel the need to make you confirm every tiny thing they do, and which are different for _every single application_ (once you’re used to central package management on Linux, this seems like sheer raving insanity and you wonder how it ever seemed to make sense).
I could equally cite problematic installation processes on Windows – ever installed a program from the .exe file, tried to run it, and got some cryptic error message that – after half an hour of painful Googling – you found out means you have to install the Virtual Basic runtime libraries?
Ooops, I guess Windows isn’t ready for most either.
May 7th, 2007
er, Visual Basic. :P
May 7th, 2007
Linux needs to abandon command lines most importantly and make something like .exe files or .msi files and do away with repositories, dependencies, the whole system and start over.
what? Linux need to abandon command lines? whatever you said before that make some sense, but that line is the most stupid suggestion I ever heard for Linux.
May 7th, 2007
Everyone gets the OS they deserve. Some people should stick with Windows and deal with security concerns most of their time (or simply ignore them and submit their computers to the bot nets of the world).
This really is a little like an analphabet bitching about how books are no use at all.
Robin
May 7th, 2007
Oops, sorry, the English word seems to be ‘illiterate’. Well, it’s not my native tongue.
May 7th, 2007
I think that you should read this superb article. Simply – Linux is not Windows.
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
May 8th, 2007
People who want to learn to use GNU-Linux should dedicate a computer to it. When I finally dedicated a laptop to the task, I learned more in a week than I had after years of dual booting and using emulators.
People who cannot get hardware to work on their own should buy a Dell with Ubuntu preinstalled when they’re available. When Dell preinstalls Ubuntu, the essential, if not all, hardware that comes with the computer will work.
Another option is to buy a old centrino laptop with an IPW2200 wireless card in it. They seem to be very well supported. The newer centrino laptops with the IPW3945 wireless cards are not yet very well supported. (Maybe in a few more months.)
I’m interested in knowing what software people want but cannot find in any repository. There are many options for installing software. Search for “how to install anything in ubuntu” for a comprehensive guide. Don’t try to memorize it all. Learn the parts you need as you need them.
May 8th, 2007
Pathetic attempt at a review. Here’s a real (critical) review of the latest Ubuntu release: What’s Wrong With Ubuntu 7.04: http://apcmag.com/5981/hands_on_with_ubuntu_7_04_part_1
The point is that the reviewer actually used the OS and made valid points for a position of knowledge. He actually got browny points with the linux community for making intelligent observations and suggestions. Your stuff is simply garbage.
By the way, I am writing this from an Ubuntu laptop connecting using a wireless network card that is explicitly NOT supported by linux (a netgear PCMCIA) – it took me less than five minutes to get it working and I never touched a command line. And I have used Ubuntu for over a year and NEVER had to edit sources.lst.
May 8th, 2007
My word, alot of strong opinions. I think I am equally qualified to write an article on brain surgery as John is to write on computers. The article was neither balanced nor informed.
If you’re thinking of a games machine I would urge people to Dell rather than John after their recent aquisition of Alienware, though I suspect John knows more about games machines?!
May 8th, 2007
I build gaming systems from scratch so I’d like to think I know a tiny bit about computers. I think “Linux novice” would be more appropiate… if you’re going to call me a novice about anything.
I think this says it all.
1) Please note: Linux certainly isn’t ready for gaming.
Well… I’d like to see one of you get my wireless card and graphics card working in Ubuntu… without resorting to the command line… I’m just giving up… actually, gave up a long time ago.
2) Dell supplied preloaded Linux will most certainly work out of the box with the wireless card supplied by Dell and wothout resorting to the command line. That is the whole idea of preloading – the manufacturer supplies compatible hardware and the appropriate drivers.
May 8th, 2007
A few things you have wrong
1) the command line should NOT go. There are many times when it is more useful such as running batch commands. It is so useful that MS added it to Vista as if it were the greatest thing they had ever invented
2) You have to be kidding me about the dependencies. I have NEVER EVER in 4 years of using linux had that problem.
FUD, pure FUD
May 8th, 2007
If this is an ‘opinion piece’ then I can accept it even though I disagree with it.
If however this article is being pushed as some kind of informed review then I must say that it would be better to choose a topic you have at least some basic knowledge of.
I will agree with you that not all applications in Linux look great, but that is being worked on.
If you want the command line removed from Linux then you don’t know what Linux is.
If you use the repository as a complaint then you have surely never used it. I used Windows operating systems since 95, several months ago I switched to Ubuntu and I love the repository. I don’t need to crawl the web looking for a site to download an application from and worry if I got the right site or some virus or trojan.
If you don’t like the command line you can use Synaptic (GUI) and the repository gives you access to some 20,000 safe tools, scripts and applications that are guaranteed to be compatible with your current release.
As a long time windows user I find installing software in Linux easier. I spend less time maintaining my system and more time using it, or working with it.
I could go on, but I believe the point has been made.
May 8th, 2007
I’m going to pick you up on this comment:
“Yes, but the support has to be purchased separately… I forgot to mention that.”
First of all, can you quote a source for this? As I understand Cannonical’s statements on http://www.ubuntu.com, they may – and do – charge for enterprise support. However, in no way does this imply that you MUST buy separate support from Dell/Canonical when you buy your Ubuntu-preloaded Dell
Secondly:
http://ubuntuforums.org/
Free, friendly, useful, support from the Ubuntu community for everyone from the linux newbie who’s confused by the installer to the guy who writes shell scripts in his sleep.
Long story short, unless you’re running a preloaded/enterprise system and have deliberately chosen to pay for extra support from Cannonical, support is free. Check your facts and source them correctly, please.
May 8th, 2007
Oh, the ignorance … I would be ashamed if I had published anything so appalling.
My experience of supporting a lot of Windows users is that as soon as there is any problem, they panic, and call for help. That is if they realise there is a problem. the number of people running systems infected with viruses or other malware is huge.
If Dell produce a PC with a pre-installed Linux – Ubuntu or any other distribution, then it will “just work” – otherwise they would not be selling it.
From then on, it can only get better for most users: no virus / malware / spyware threats; if they need more software the Ubuntu add/remove option is considerably easier than Windows.
Let me offer a tip: please stick to writing about subjects you actually know something about, or don’t write.
May 8th, 2007
How silly. Windows users deal with dependencies and repositories every day – they just don’t call them that.
Almost every Windows user in the world has a horror story to tell about “DLL-Hell”. The fact is – those are DEPENDENCY PROBLEMS.
Their repository (source of installed software) is split across umpteen jillion separate installation CD’s. When they want to reinstall Word (assuming MSoft will give them permission), they have to search for the repository (CD) that contains it. There’s no difference – except in naming
By this writers logic, Windows isn’t ready for the average user. The fact is that all users – Windows, Macs, Unix, Linux (not to mention those to come) – deal with both repositories and dependencies. The only difference is that some of us don’t have to worry about excessively restrictive DRM. Now, which of us are likely to have the more pleasant experience?
May 8th, 2007
I didn’t even get very far into your article before I could aim at what the real problem here is. You are not interested in LEARNING a freaking thing. That doesn’t mean that the OS is the problem, the problem is that you are unwilling to LEARN. Did you know how to use winblows the first time you used it? Of course not. And now you insist that in using Linux, it will never be ready for people becuase it doesn’t work EXACTLY like what you already use? YOU ALREADY USE WINBLOWS, WHY DO WE NEED ANOTHER OS EXACTLY LIKE THAT? Your laziness is the problem, not linux or Mac’s OSX, for that matter.
If you had been using Linux for the last 7 years, like I have been (and I am NOT a coding geek, either), winblows would seem like the single most resrtictive, backward, fr4ustrating thing you will have EVER used on a computer. I can’t use it for more than 5 minutes wuithout wanting to beat the machine with a sledgehammer.
If there was EVER a system that isn’t ready for the desktop, it’s winblows. I’ve built computers, both professionally and as a user, for almost 20 years, now, and I KNOW how they work. I have installed Winblows from 3.1 all the way to XP, and hate it. It’s a stupid, poorly designed, kludged together system that has more security holes than a sieve. Not to mention the childishness of XP in general. I mean, really, what is it with this little “find files” doggy? How childish can you be? And this is the “professional” version? If I were to start someone off on ANY system, now, it would be linux. And they wouldn’t have to install a freaking program other than what comes with the distro. Say THAT about winblows.
What is the point for you guys to denigrate a working, stable and useable OS because it’s not what you already know? Damn, guys, stand up for laziness and stupidity all you want, but realize that all it does is make you look foolish. You might as well just quit living, now, because you’ve quit learning, and that is essentially the same as being dead. Damn, crack a book or a magazine, go to google and ask a question, and LEARN something new for a freaking change.
Linux will NEVER be winblows. The community wouldn’t let it slide so far into childish mediocrity for it to become so. And for you guys to insist that Linux has to be so in order to make you happy tells me that you guys aren’t interested in anything that isn’t exactly what you already know. LAZY, LAZY, LAZY. Don’t blame Linux for YOUR inability to learn anymore. The problem is in YOUR heads, not in how linux works.
May 8th, 2007
Oh , hearing that “linux is not ready for the desktop ” I heard that before… I duno remember where ;)
“In my world there are only three operating systems, Windows XP, Vista and Mac OSX and it will always be that way”
IMHO: I am sorry for you, but don’t worry nobody is perfect (specially you ;) )
May 8th, 2007
Let’s be honest, installing the “Wndows” way is like this:
Go to store, pick software, pull out credit card, purchase software, go back home. Open CD case, remove disk insert into computer. Enter code, click next, click I agree, click next, finish. Total time, 15min~several hours depending on store location.
3~6 months later, sloooow startup, download different anti-spyware, install, found 156threats, fix them, yes. Application X no longer works. Un-install appx, re-install appx, no joy. Backup all important info, wipe Windows, re-install, activate, failure, call MS to activate, explain the reason you are re-installing. Reload all of your previously purchased software.
This is a very common occurrence, and if you are at all honest with yourself, you will admit that this has happened to you.
I gave up on running Windows in late 2000. I still deal with Windows software daily (IT Pro), but I run *nix based software at home and at the office.
The Windows registry is something Windows users will have to deal with eventually. If you think command line stuff is difficult, go edit the registry and see how fun that is.
Cheers,
Alex C.
May 8th, 2007
As far as I can see both OS’s have their benefits.
Ubuntu for me takes minutes to set up, I install it, answer all the questions just like windows, then restart and boot into the proper OS. This is really were the two start to differ, Ubuntu’s software update package is brilliant, even if there is two hundred odd updates required I can just start the program and let them download to their hearts desire, in Doze this is not the case, I have to install millions of software updates (I resent the whole WPA as well) this involves constant restarting, probing and at times half an hour long installation and by the end of it I’m still not secure, no firewall, no decent web browser, nothing.
I dont see how they can complain about the lack of .exe file types in Ubuntu, we have .Deb’s what can I say, you press install and most of the time it just works.
Ubuntu is also much faster on my machine than XP or 2k, it was even faster when only one of my two processors was active back when I was using dapper, hell even some of the games in Cedega work faster.
The real clinching point however (that the blogger dude has missed out on), is games support and professional software, no matter what people say Audacity and Gimp dont quite make up for the loss of Sonar and Photoshop, but they are free. Games are a mixed bunch, whilst you can install Cedega with the money you saved from not buying windows it doesnt quite work all the time, I’ve had very mixed results, games that it “supports” not working and others that it doesnt working great.
In terms of eyecandy, XGL/Beryl blows away even Vista, my machine “cant run” the fabled new Microsoft offering but it runs Beryl so smoothly its unbelievable – despite at times it being a tad unstable.
All that being said however, I’ve never had any problems with loss of sound in windows unlike Ubuntu, I’ve not been plagued by GRUB buggering up (numerous occassions) and the whole experience took me about a month too get used to (and I’m a bit of a nerd).
Anyway, thats my two cents.
May 8th, 2007
To those of you who felt that Jonathan was crafting a review-styled article, you are mistaken. The article is clearly opinion-based, and as such should be taken with a grain of salt by those of you who believe he is Linux’s anti-Christ. Honestly, if he chooses to become informed or stay less informed, that is his prerogative, and if he decides to point out problems he found in Ubuntu that dissuayed him from further testing of the OS, so be it. It is a simple question of context, and if you read it again as an opinion article, you should be able to take away that he feels this way for his own reasons…sort of like most of you feel that Windows is the epitome of all evil. It goes both ways; opinion is simply that.
May 8th, 2007
Thats funny how you are having such a hard time understanding the simple idea of repos, something my 50 year old mother understood and loved after me explaining it to her once.
May 8th, 2007
if we can talk about dependencies, most cases repositories destroy windows download and install executables, why because any good repository contains the dependency required, or is built around a release. I have about 5 computers in my house three run ubuntu 2 run windows, and guess what when I apt-get something it installs, no problems. The last time I had an issue with a deb package is the reconstructor deb built for edgy while running feisty. The repositories automatically download and install needed dependencies. However while limeware is able to pause install java and then continue to install it self not all windows installers do that. A good example of this is the ATI driver package if you want to use the catalyst suite, which gives you a nice error if you haven’t installed .NET. How many windows installers look automagically install dependencies not a lot. In the repository method the worst case scenario is just as bad as windows, find and install a dependency.
Sorry but as some one who uses, Linux, OS X, Windows XP & Vista, debians apt-get (repositories) is the easiest and the best method of installing applications.
May 8th, 2007
“Heaven help you if you want to install something that isn’t in the repository list which will require installation of a dependency and sometimes the dependency requires a dependency, isn’t that lovely? No, no its not.”
Double clicking on a .deb and click install. It will automatically download all dependencies for you. Is that too hard for you? Would you like it simpler then that?
May 8th, 2007
Interesting article. I’ve used MS since PC- and MS-DOS 2.0 up to the current version of Windows as well as Unix since ‘87 and Linux since the early ’90s. My job has been computer support so I have needed to know these systems. One truism my coworkers and I have discovered is that there is a learning curve involved with any operating system. The big difference is that you learn Unix or Linux once but MS operating systems over and over again, as they change enough between iterations to drive you bonkers when you’re troubleshooting them. The biggest advantage we found with MS operating systems was that they went bad so often you really had to learn how they were designed (and of course how this version differed now from its predecessor) to survive. And that has been the downside to Unix and Linux. Once they’re set up, support time plummets. In my years with Unix/Linux systems I’ve had less than 10 failures and of those most were hardware issues that, once resolved, required no os/software work on our part.
I agree that wireless cards can be an issue, even on Windows systems, but it’s amazing that they work at all on Linux, considering that devices like this usually require the software from the vendors.
Our biggest problem now is with Windows updates trashing running systems, the problem du jour being corruption of the video drivers. I doubt most folks are familiar with the registry rollback concept. Just more money in my pocket, so it’s not all bad.
Personally I installed PCLinuxOS for the grandkids (elementary age to high school) and they’ve come back to me amazed at what they can do on their machines that they couldn’t do in Windows. The kicker is they’re not computer geeks and my training session for each was less than 60 minutes (after that it was “Go for it! You’re not gonna break anything!”). Their parents are happy too, since the kids have lots of games on the system, document editors/spreadsheet/presentation managers for their school work, internet access (that can really be locked down), instant messaging, and email among others. No having to run to the store to get the latest game (although Cedega would be the way to go there). And Beryl is way cool to these folks. What do I get out of it? Zero support time required.
Even if one of their old computer motherboard dies, I only have to move the hard drive to another machine, boot up, and let Linux set up the new components. If I wanted I could dup the disk (or set up software to do that), but why. They can easily back up their work to other media. By the way, how long does it take to reinstall Windows when the only thing working is the hard drive? And then you have the applications to reinstall.
May 8th, 2007
Compare the Ubuntu Community to the Windows community.
Oh, sorry. Compare the Ubuntu community to Windows Support.
If you can type and use a mouse, you can use Ubuntu with relative ease.
May 8th, 2007
Jonathan,
What video, wireless cards are you running anyway?
Hardware support in Linux can be tricky (and it will be tricky as long as hardware vendors don’t support open source drivers), but why don’t you just say so in your article? Instead you spend all your time bashing the package managers that are vastly superior to anything Windows as to offer…
May 8th, 2007
This is really a ridiculous story. I switched from XP to Kubuntu about half a year ago, and Kubuntu is far, far, far easier with installing programs than XP ever was.
And I am very well able tom compare it after working for years with XP and now for half a year with Kubuntu.
May 8th, 2007
Let me point out something to all the OMGWTFUSUK people.
Triston McIntyre said it best: This article is an OPINION. You guys don’t even touch on his main point. He’s talking about Dell’s agreement to equip PC’s with Ubuntu and ship them out. He apparently thinks Linux in general is not ready for Joe Schmoe user.
You know what? He’s right.
Just to drive the opinion thing home, Bill Gates once said that he “didn’t think that PC’s needed more than 64KB (Or was it MB?) of RAM. He was dead wrong, but that was his OPINION at the time.
This man actually hits on a good point here.
If I sat my mother down in front of a Ubuntu desktop and told her to “add http://somewebsite/repository” to her sources.list, she’d freak.
Yes, I know, Synaptic makes it easy to enable the default repositories (multiverse, etc), but as far as I’ve searched, you can’t ADD any of your own, unless you fire up that editor and edit the config file yourself.
What Grandma do YOU know would understand the concept of configuration files for an OS? The point is: The average user wants something that WORKS. They don’t care how and why, they just want it to work.
If any user (average cubicle user) has to fire up the Terminal, the OS has failed and failed miserably.
I’m not saying that Windows is the savoir OS. I have throttled it many a time in my career, but it didn’t get to be #1 by accident. No. Users can sit at a Windows box and USE it.
Some of you mentioned *.rpm and *.deb files. Those certainly are useful, but what if a package breaks? What if you DON’T have a dependency? *.rpm and *.deb files are archives with install scripts.
Let’s not forget that the primary way of doing things in the old days of Linux was:
./configure
make
make install
Granted, Ubuntu can do all of this for you automatically, but, and I repeat, BUT, it is NOT perfect.
I actually would serve up Gentoo before Ubuntu to a requesting user. (Sabayon, but it’s still Gentoo :P) At least you can use Kuroo and the Portage system to alleviate dependency issues. (And it’s damn easy to use.)
Lest we forget that Ubuntu is Debian wrapped up pretty? APT and the .deb format have their own problems that would send most users into a heart attack.
And I believe some of you brought up the fact that you are ’stymied’ by the boot up BSOD? The hint is the STOP error you get. Boot from an XP disc, repair, reinstall apps and docs and you’re done.
Now let’s look at a Linux kernel panic. (It does happen, folks. Don’t kid yourselves.)
….Yeah. :P Boot from a LiveCD. Find out your Ubuntu version. (Either way, you have to open a terminal.) Find out what version you’re running.
uname -r
Good. Now in that terminal, cd /usr/src/linux.
make mrproper
make menuconfig
make bzImage
make modules_install
What part of any above do you honestly think Joe Schmoe could do? (If there is a GUI in the LiveCD that will -repair a broken kernel-, do let me know. I haven’t seen it yet.)
Don’t get me wrong. I love Linux. I’ve also been a technician for about 5 years and I have a need to learn. I’ve learned alot with Linux, and this has been the one thing I’ve seen:
Linux will take a LONG time to be ready for the average user. From it’s very structure, it was derived for us geeks.
Do I believe Linux will be able to ‘topple’ Windows? No. It’s too late in the game for that. For all of those who bitch about Vista, Vista is just a inbetween for Vienna. It’s WindowsME all over again.
Do I want Linux on desktops and offices? Yes. I believe it’s a damn good system…for those of us who understand it.
If I had to pick a distro, it would NOT be Ubuntu. Why? It’s Debian. The same with Fedora, it’s RedHat. Any distro that users archived installs suffers too much from dependency issues and library hells to be useful in the workplace or at home.
Admittedly, I’m a Gentoo person. I love Sabayon Linux and I think THAT distro would be the better choice.
To sum this all up: Don’t bash the guy for his opinion. He’s coming from an average user’s standpoint. They do NOT know what we know. Linux is far from perfect. Far enough, to keep it from the Desktop market.
Sorry to burst your collective bubble, but it’s far too late. The folks at Redmond got on the ride and kicked everyone off. ;)
May 8th, 2007
The average user can’t install or manage anything in Windows, so I don’t know why people use that as a test for whether or not Linux is ready for the desktop. It has taken a decade for most Windows users to figure out how to download and install a program from the internet, and they still can’t get it right.
The guy that wrote this article is mislead and wrong. Linux isn’t hard. I put average people on Linux systems all the time, and they don’t even know they are on Linux. Average people don’t set up hardware on their computers, so that argument
is irrelevant, and I wish people would stop using it. The average person can’t figure out how to hook up there own hard drive or install a graphics card.
Redmond isn’t on top because they made the best OS out there. They are big because they provided the OS for IBM, and IBM has always had an open-hardware policy. IBM lets everybody copy their hardware, unlike Apple, and that is why IBM compatible PC’s are the most common PC. Microsoft happened to be the only thing available for the IBM compatible computers, and that’s why Microsoft is so big now. It’s just the right place at the right time for Microsoft. That and the fact that they have unethical, mafia-style tactics whenever someone moves into their market. Take Dr. DOS for example. They purposely put code into Windows 3.1 so it wouldn’t run on Dr. DOS. Hmmm . . . not cool.
There is no bubble to be burst. It’s a fact. Linux is ready for the average user, and has been for quite some time.
May 8th, 2007
JustAGuy: Administration -> Software Sources lets you add repos without touching the sources.list file.
May 8th, 2007
“To those of you who felt that Jonathan was crafting a review-styled article, you are mistaken. The article is clearly opinion-based, and as such should be taken with a grain of salt by those of you who believe he is Linux’s anti-Christ. Honestly, if he chooses to become informed or stay less informed, that is his prerogative, and if he decides to point out problems he found in Ubuntu that dissuayed him from further testing of the OS, so be it. It is a simple question of context, and if you read it again as an opinion article, you should be able to take away that he feels this way for his own reasons…sort of like most of you feel that Windows is the epitome of all evil. It goes both ways; opinion is simply that.”
Triston, do you want this site to become known as a source of ill-formed opinion? Your site says “Technology with attitude!”, attitude can be enjoyable but when paired with lazyness and ignorance it’s not pretty.
You want Jonathan’s “opinion” piece to be accepted as such, well you should consider offering the same consideration to *the readers* that I assume this site was put up for.
Jonathan is rightfully being taken to task, not because he thinks Linux isn’t ready for the desktop, but because his “rationals” for the statement don’t hold water. This isn’t TeeVee where you can say any old thing, we have hyperlinks here on teh interweb, if you are spewing crap you will be embarrased for it buy *many* folks, and teh ‘web don’t forget.
Jonathan could have read literally *thousands* of articles, “opinions”, white papers, analyst reports from the last 8 years that say why Linux isn’t ready for the desktop (many of us allready have), you call it opinion, commenters call if FUD; the point is it’s a poor example of either.
At least if it’s FUD it’s not also wrong.
Please don’t bring these kinds of low standards to the Net, leav them for the traditional media (thats what they are payed for). I know it can be a challenge to fill a site with orginal content but please set a standard above Slashdot (Score:1, Redundant).
Thanks for participating.
May 8th, 2007
“Not to mention all the programs you have to choose from for playing video/audio files to text editing, it’s almost too much.”
ZOMG!!!!11one11!!! Choice! The horror! Seriously though, what kind of argument is that? So choice is bad now? With an attitude like that you and Windows are a perfect match. I suppose you’re upset with the fact there are so many fast food choices? So many brand names to choose from? I’m scurd from all the choices! Quick, someone choose for me!
“Yeah, okay… what? I don’t even care to understand what that means… why can’t I just install an executable or msi file and be done with it. Linux doesn’t work that way which is why it will never be ready for Joe Schmo user, not that Windows is easy for some people either but come on… I want double click installation files where I can click “Next, Next, Okay, Finish.””
It’s called a .deb file, and you can double-click it, using the default Gnome WM (among others). The package manager alone makes it easier to install things than Windows. An average ‘Joe Schmo’ wouldn’t have need to add custom repositories for programs such as Cinelerra anyway. So again, poor argument. Plenty of video editing apps are already in the repositories should ‘Joe Schmo’ need to actually edit video.
You could have summed up this entire entry with “I tried Linux (i.e. Ubuntu) but I was too lazy to spend the 15 minutes to learn my way around.”
And really, you’re just __used__ to Windows. This article has nothing to do with which OS is really better, or even ready for the Desktop. It’s about what you’re used to, and why anything different from what __you’re__ used to is bad.
What I find most surprising is that this is a ‘Tech Blog’ and you’re whining about not being able to double-click executables (when in fact you can). If only the rest of the world could attain your tech-savvy leetness.
“Linux lacks polish, its programs lack polish, it’s free but as always is not worth it in my opinion.”
Again, an invalid argument. It lacks polish? Seriously, what in the hell does that have to do with usability? Ever heard of Beryl/XGL? Linux isn’t ready for the Desktop…cause it’s not pretty enough! Do you choose all your apps based on looks alone? Again, I stand in awe of your tech-savvy awesomeness.
“Linux needs to abandon command lines most importantly and make something like .exe files or .msi files and do away with repositories, dependencies, the whole system and start over.”
I’m thoroughly entertained with your generalization of Ubuntu = Linux. Are you reviewing Ubuntu or not? Ubuntu is one of many distributions…it’s not “Linux”. Again with the .exe’s/.msi’s, .deb’s (for Debian based systems) are the equivalent. Yes, let’s do away with repositories, because opening up Synaptic Package Manager, selecting an app, and installing it is so damn confusing! I want to be forced to go online and search the net, download the .exe, and DOUBLE-CLICK it! Way easier. And while we’re at it, let’s do away with the command line cause it’s so old school! Ever consider the fact that the command line is there for power users, and GUI apps are there for others? No? Didn’t think so, as that involves choice! And we’ve already determined choice is bad.
Do us all a favor, and stop reviewing anything. Or at least add a disclaimer, “I’m too lazy to research anything, am frightened by choices, and am a Windows fanboy which impairs my ability to look at anything not Microsoft objectively.”
May 8th, 2007
wow!
You guys have 15 articles on your Linux category and your already pros!
Yes, there is talk about dependencies but it’s to educate the user. I’m sorry that you didn’t know what it meant and had to go look it up. Just because Linux didn’t act like Windows you get your panties in a bind.
And with you talk with abandoning the command line is BS. If you haven’t noticed even Windows has a new love for the command line.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/technologies/management/powershell/default.mspx
And the whole edge of Linux is that you can always go to the command line. Computers are about automation and making life easier and if you want to you can script something, who the hell want to click on the same button when things can be automated with scripts.
May 9th, 2007
Just stick with Windows is the short answer to it all!
The rest of us are fine with Linux.
Thierry
May 9th, 2007
First, Mr. Schaffler, thanks for letting us opine with our own thoughts that your comments have inspired. I make most of my money fixing Windows systems as the Linux systems I’ve installed for businesses just run. If the end user has no/limited computer experience, then the factors to consider should include some of the following:
1. What does she plan to do with the computer? Non-business? email, internet (usually just WWW) top the list. next is a letter writing program, then maybe a check balancing program (that she/he will probably stop using within the month).
2. What is her current computer skill level?
3. How fat is her wallet, since there may be optional (read mandatory) applications needed, such as antivirus and spyware software that she’ll need to purchase if she does not understand how to download and install the free ware available for home users?
4. How powerful a computer does she need? If she’s going with Vista, a powerful chip and tons of memory are a must for satisfactory performance.
5. Where can she get training to use her computer and support to fix it if she has problems?
6. The customer is always right.
There is no “one size fits all” and it behooves us to remember this.
All things being equal, I tend to install Linux on the computers of friends and family, since I know I can have them up and running quickly with minimal instruction. The bonus is that I know they won’t be bugging me all the time with computer problems. With customers I try to let them see Windows and Linux in action, explain the positives and negatives of both operating systems, explaining my personal biases so that they can take that into account, and happily accept their decisions and money. One advantage with Linux is that they can use it for free. If they decide to have Windows installed (then or later), they need only to select the version (XP home, XP Professional, Vista home basic, Vista home premium, Vista ultimate, Vista business, Vista enterprise), pay me the for the software, and I’ll install it. I’ll even make recommendations on the antivirus and spyware software to consider using.
Thank you again, Mr. Schlaffer, for reminding us that in computer operating systems, just as in life, there are no simple answers.
May 9th, 2007
I know someone who has never reinstalled windows. He switched from win98 to win2k when he bought a new computer. He hated it. He had to install all of his programs, some of which no longer worked because of the OS change. He also had to configure all his settings. I think he may have vowed to never do anything similar again. Since then, he’s bought a few new computers, but he always goes back to using the old one (with win2k) because it has all of his programs, settings, and data. He seems to dread the idea of switching to a new computer because of the work involved in setting it up. Meanwhile, the computer he’s still using is slowly degrading. Windows starts up slower and slower each time I see him. Some hardware also has stopped being recognized correctly by windows. I’m amazed the computer still functions, and I wonder what he will do when it’s all over.
Compare that to when I installed Debian on several computers. I booted from the install CD, answered some questions, and let the files copy. Then I copied my home directory to each computer. All of my settings and most of my software, with a few small exceptions, was duplicated on each computer. Plus I now have, as part of the process, multiple backups. So if something happens that I can’t fix it in a reasonable amount of time, I can easily scrap it and start over. This has happened only once because I was using Debian unstable and I accidentally removed some very important packages (so bash and the package manager no longer worked). I’m still learning, so it’s an acceptable loss.
When I was first learning windows, I had to reinstall at least 3 times within the first week.
May 9th, 2007
I actually agree with most of what you say here. The make/break thing for any linux distro for me was always the package manager. This is because Linux equals dependency hell. A package manager (like Debian’s apt-get) is helpful because it makes this process somewhat straightforward. But why do we even need apt-get to make package installation easier? Why can’t dependencies just not be the problem that they are? Apt-get simplifies a process that shouldn’t need to be handled at all. So it’s a blessing but not entirely good.
What I don’t agree with is the notion that Linux lacks polish. I believe that’s a mental thing that many people share, and it’s something people need to get over. It seems to me that once someone decides an app isn’t polished, they will only look for behaviours that reinforce this notion. A window taking a little longer to display than it would on Windows gets written off as “another example of lacking polish”, because they are looking for bad things. The reason I say this is because I had a pretty extensive exposure to OSX last year after deciding that I didn’t want to like it, before I even saw it. I noticed a lot about it that didn’t feel polished. Just knowing that it’s a GUI floating over a command-line backend is, in my opinion, enough to make people start looking for flaws, perhaps because they don’t think it’s a “pure” GUI.
May 9th, 2007
<quote>Linux needs to abandon command lines most importantly and make something like .exe files or .msi files and do away with repositories, dependencies, the whole system and start over.</quote>
I almost laughed my head off with that quote…Priceless…
If you had even the unbiased decency to look up what they meant, you’d know that most Linux package managers resolve the dependencies and come with links to default repositories…Pretty big ones too…The dependencies basically means that you don’t have to spend an afternoon looking for $^*!^$ API or sfidfidsi library. Repositories are basically sites to download stuff from.
Also, if you stop living under your rock called Windows, you’d realized that there are all sorts of Linux one-click instalelrs, like Debian or RPM packages.
Shells are the most powerful beings in a Linux computer. Quoted from http://www.linuxcommand.org/learning_the_shell.php:
<quote>Why do you need to learn the command line anyway? Well, let me tell you a story. Not long ago we had a problem where I used to work. There was a shared drive on one of our file servers that kept getting full. I won’t mention that this legacy operating system did not support user quotas; that’s another story. But the server kept getting full and stopping people from working. One of the software engineers in our company spent the better part of a day writing a C++ program that would look through the directories of all the users and add up the space they were using and make a listing of the results. Since I was forced to use the legacy OS while I was on the job, I installed a version of the bash shell that works on it. When I heard about the problem, I realized I could do all the work this engineer had done with this single line:
du -s * | sort -nr > $HOME/space_report.txt
Graphical user interfaces (GUIs) are helpful for many tasks, but they are not good for all tasks. I have long felt that most computers today do not use electricity. They instead seem to be powered by the “pumping” motion of the mouse! Computers were supposed to free us from manual labor, but how many times have you performed some task you felt sure the computer should be able to do? You ended up doing the work by tediously working the mouse. Pointing and clicking, pointing and clicking.
I once heard an author remark that when you are a child you use a computer by looking at the pictures. When you grow up, you learn to read and write. Welcome to Computer Literacy 101. Now let’s get to work. </quote>
May 9th, 2007
You should be truly embarrassed to have written this article.
May 9th, 2007
Jonathan, you mention Cinelerra and grandmas but I’m not sure how many grandmas would want to do video editing. But I agree that advanced video editing with Linux is harder to set up(and Cinelerra at least seems to have some bugs) but I think most people don’t neec advanced video editing.
Second, you keep talking about your wireless card. That’s a major problem with Linuxen I agree that but if Ubuntu would be preinstalled then I don’t see why it wouldn’t work? At least I wouldn’t pay for an preinstalled OS that doesn’t work and I doubt that Dell would ship their computers with an Ubuntu cd/dvd and a note “Hope everything works.”
Finally, if a package isn’t in the repositories then a mainstream user should think it doesn’t officially exist for this distro and installing it might break something although for example alien works well as it install rpm-files to a Debian-based package manager(dpkg). It’s a pain too when some software doesn’t exist for Windows. Linuxen have less software, it is one of worst downfalls but Linux-systems in the mainstream would bring more users and therefore more developers.
May 10th, 2007
What a dumb ass. All you are trying to do is scare people away from using linux, especially those who SHOULD be using it. Should I really have my mom spend $200+ to do internet, email, and a little photo editing? You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? You are probably one of those people who has difficulty installing Windows programs, aren’t you? Do you realise how simple this command really is: wget -q http://medibuntu.sos-sts.com/repo/medibuntu-key.gpg -O- | sudo apt-key add? Read it again, and you will kick your own ass. All windows users have at least two things they know how to do: copy & paste.
May 10th, 2007
Ok, a few points.
Repositories are just a place for software to reside. Think download.com except you have a program that resides on your computer to search it (Synaptic). Dependencies are comparable to .dll files. Many programs you install will install everything necessary, especially if you use Synaptic. If you have trouble, you can also google search; many many people use ubuntu and can help you with your problems.
I have never heard of someone saying there is TOO MUCH software available.
Installing limewire under linux also is a simple clickclick done process. I am not sure when you last used a distro of ubuntu, but it is not exactly a complicated matter to install most every program you need for basic users. Also, a computer shipped OEM with ubuntu will have all hardware configured; why would it be any different from shipping windows with all he required drivers?
While I do understand that people who have been brought up on windows may have a bit of a difficult time converting to ubuntu, it is simply because it is not exactly the same, not because it is more difficult. If someone were brought up on ubuntu, windows would not seem intuitive to them.
And as far as ‘polished’ looks go, heres a screenshot of me running ubuntu:
http://img.waffleimages.com/349687c22edf6f01b8bfe5109f14bedae092a5f4/Screenshot-22.png
which includes a file manager and aim/yahoo client, also a system monitor on the side
May 10th, 2007
[img]http://img.waffleimages.com/349687c22edf6f01b8bfe5109f14bedae092a5f4/Screenshot-22.png[/img]
May 10th, 2007
T-R-O-L-L.
Are you bored?
Do you like all this attention? Did mummy not hug you enough?
May 12th, 2007
This has to be the funniest piece of blogging I’ve seen in a long time.
Seriously, it’s a parody/satire/sarcasm right?
Must be for the google adsense impressions – I suppose you figured you could write some inflaming “tech” article and PHWOAR, look at that google adsense income skyrocket.
btw, building gaming machines makes you a tech, oh man, I laughed so hard I actually had tears in my eyes. I’m going to tell my 4yo daughter that she’s an engineer now, since she can build lego buildings. Astounding how talented kids are now.
May 12th, 2007
Hi there, I really do not know you, I have no respect or disrespect for ya. but get real, you were born just yesterday, or last week, whaeva, for that matter, you should try some Operating System history to get with the times. Everyone else is, also… things are evolving, yes you heard me right, ubuntu might not be here forever but it is leaving a much better footprint that MSFT did back in the old days. Ubuntu didnt purchase small companies to get rich, ubuntu is just a choice, a flavor. Accept it, things changed, you just have to adapt, Windows is a jail for some users… are you one of them? Use your intelligence to adopt and adapt
So ubuntu has a few commands to get hardware going, so what? in Windows you pay a royalty for stuff you hardly need, and then some. System becomes bloated, implodes, explodes and you have to do what? REINSTALL. Do you have another solution? Does Vista have an efficient restore solution? Can you shut down several layers of the OS without affecting others? Did WinXP ever do that? hardly!!
I’ve never used Vista, nor will I ever, I wasn’t born into this world to use technologies, much less worthless ones.
Oh and I can’t remember that apt-key command, so I save it on a text file, organize it, and search it later, (thats how you learn to memorize it) Thats it! how complicated is that?
are you paying attention? why am I even trying… loser
rm -r “Jonathan Schlaffer”
May 12th, 2007
Windows installation procedure: double click .exe or msi file… so easy…. So easy to install viruses and spyware is more like it. I don’t care how good of a virus scanner you have, there will always be some that will install without being detected.
May 15th, 2007
Im a Windows power user who has 2 dual boots machines (XP/Ubuntu, XP/Mandriva) and have used Linux flavors over the years but have nowhere the experience that 20 years of being forced to diddle into Windows.
Is there a learning curve? Depends what you want to do. (I agree that Windows users often stare at a Mac screen not knowing what to do)
I’ve installed over a dozen Linux distros with the help of a friend on machines that belong to senior citizens and to surf the web, email, listen mp3’s and the 95% of things people do, no problem.
Have really had any ‘calls’ yet once we got the machines installed.
If you cant match up with the Golden Girls we have using Feisty Fawn mabe you should have your geek license (and testicles) removed.
Grannies dont have the problems you have. Firefox is the same no matter the OS, Thunderbird feels like every other email client and Open Office is like every other word processor so let me laugh at your problems with the look
“Not to mention all the programs you have to choose from for playing video/audio files to text editing, it’s almost too much.”
And that is a problem HOW?
You want LESS choices?
Your article reminds me of the guy who goes to a strip joint and complains that the dancer is a commie.
You have it wrong: Ubuntu is ready for most but for some a dual boot is necessary because of that one Windows only apps.
June 1st, 2007
Why is it that people are afraid of things that they don’t understand?
ANY Linux disro boasts more advantages over the virus filled crap Microsoft spews out of its closed-source labs than I care to list.
As for Linux not being ‘polished’ I only have to remind a normal Windows user of the problems they have with spyware/malware (which is almost a non-factor in Linux by the way). Any person switching in between OS types is going to experience SOME difficulty in “getting the hang” of the new system (Linux in this case).
To the author of this article: Why not give Linux a chance and try it out for yourself? I have no doubt in my mind that you will see the advantages it has over and Windows OS almost immediately after you begin using it.
Cheers@
June 6th, 2007
I hate to be the cynical linux user here….but:
You’re a fucking retard. Please, allow my elaboration:
Imagine this, if you will:
You install Windows….cool – now you have a text editor, calculator, bitmap editor (paint), web browser, and a few other tools (that honestly don’t all suck…they’re just not very powerful, for the most part). Now you decide that you want some software that doesn’t come with Windows – say a nice FTP application (just for this example). What do you do?
You get on Google – type in ‘FTP Windows’ and watch as you are bombarded by crapware ads and sites trying to get you to download “Free trials” and blah blah blah. You try some more specific search terms like “best ftp program for windows” or “free ftp program for Windows without spyware” – Then you find a few discussions about which FTP programs are good for X, Y, and Z reasons and after sorting through them all you narrow it down to a few. Then you go to each one’s website in your browser and download an exe or msi installer file. *THEN AND ONLY THEN* do you double click that file and start ignoring all the copyright warnings until you finally get your little icon on your desktop. And *If you’re lucky!* that’s “all” there is to it. Sadly, more often than not, the program you installed has a few tricks up it’s sleeve….be it spyware or only 30 days to use it before you have to pay somebody…or whatever else kind of shit they’re doing to Windows programs these days.
Now: the same situation in Ubuntu.
Click your menu, click on “Package manager”, click the BIGASS SEARCH BUTTON AT THE TOP, type in FTP. Now you get a list of FTP programs with descriptions of all of them and install buttons for all of them. You read through the descriptions, find which one sounds nice – and click the BIGASS INSTALL BUTTON RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE. Then you get a nice little entry in your application menu (sigh….yes, it’s like the Start menu) for your new program. And that’s it – No spyware, no trial periods, none of that bullshit.
You DO NOT EVER HAVE TO MESS WITH REPOSITORIES OR DEPENDENCIES IN UBUNTU – THAT IS JUST PURE IGNORANT BULLSHIT TALK. That’s leaving alone the fact that a “dependency” that you’re so scared of is nothing more than the functional equivalent of a “DLL file” in Windows. Do those scare you too? And a “repository” is nothing more than a common URL web address, just like http://tech.blorge.com OOOOHHHHH I just PISSED ON MYSELF BECAUSE THAT IS HORRIFYING. Get this: There’s more than one name for a “hard drive”!! Some people call it a “hard disk”! HOLY FUCKING SHIT – DISK!! THEY CALL A DRIVE A DISK!!!!! WHAT A BUNCH OF BABY-KILLING PSYCHOPATHS!!!!!!1111ONEONEOneoneone
A repository is a single website that has ALL THE SOFTWARE THAT HAS BEEN TESTED AND PROVEN STABLE – SAFE – VIRUS FREE – SPYWARE FREE – AND DRM/COPYRIGHT BULLSHIT FREE for your version of linux. In the case of Ubuntu: There are about twenty thousand packages (yes….packages are like Windows “programs”) from which you can choose. It’s like if you were able to click on your Start menu, go to control panel, go to add/remove programs, and actually add things in there, like Photoshop, AIM, Flash, Dreamweaver, Protools, Nuendo, Microsoft Office, Windowblinds etc. etc. etc. etc. – AND IT WAS ALL FREE OF COST – AND FREE OF SPYWARE, VIRUSES, AND DRM/COPYRIGHT BULLSHIT.
Not in your wildest dreams could you legally have something that badass in Windows – But Ubuntu DOES HAVE THAT AND IT REALLY IS THAT EASY. The programs might not necessarily be the big “Name brands” like Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft, Steinberg, Digidesign and so on – But with the lone exceptions of Photoshop and Nuendo: The free alternative is better. No, really: It is – Try it out if you don’t believe me, you hard-headed stupid fuck. Turning your nose up and saying “Bah! Impossible!” is just as retarded as the people who did the same damn thing when told the world wasn’t flat. Ignorant, hard headed, and fucking ridiculous.
If Adobe and Steinberg ever release Photoshop and Nuendo for Linux….oh man. That’ll be the day that Windows is abandoned for everything but video games (and I know those developers would be fucking giddy to develop and sell their games for linux instead of Windows – quite a few of them are developed in Linux anyway, due to the VASTLY SUPERIOR TOOLS AVAILABLE FREE OF COST, FREE OF SPYWARE, VIRUSES, AND DRM/COPYRIGHT BULLSHIT, AND NO HARDER TO INSTALL THAN CLICK, CLICK, “Type search term here” CLICK, CLICK TAADAAAA.
And you want to actually pretend that installing new software is easier in Windows than Ubuntu? What’s worse is that you would mislead (if not outright lying) your readers into believing that installing new software is easier in Windows than Ubuntu?
Hate to say it – but:
You’re a fucking retard.
Get a real job – because you suck at this one – and you fully deserve harsh criticism for doing such a bad job. Fuck you and your lies (or ignorant misinformation – which is just as bad). Windows sucks. Ubuntu is absolutely the easiest operating system for a “computer stupid user” to use. In fact: You seem so god damn stupid that I can’t believe you can get by in anything other than Ubuntu.
Allow me to paraphrase your article for you:
“I’m fucking stupid. I only know how to use a computer if it’s got a fucking stupid operating system on it. Even though there’s a better, easier to use, and FUCKING FREE alternative: That doesn’t change the fact that I’m fucking stupid, and if you’re not fucking stupid, too – FUCK YOU!”
July 8th, 2007
With Ubuntu Linux comes “Gdebi” and automated installation program. You want to install a program that isn’t in the repositories, just Google “program X .deb” and you find the debian binary. Download it, click on it to open. And Gdebi installs the program automatically for you! Not even “Next”, “Next” “OK”, just click, next, done!
Sorry to read some Linux users are more like religious sealots here. I wouldn’t call you retard. I would call you sceptical and a bit uniformed. Wich is not bad, than Linux users have the ability to explain the situation.
If it’s too much a hassle to search for .deb files and use Gdebi. You can also install Automatix. However this would demand some “command line commando’s and editting of /etc/apt/sources.list”. But thanks to the superb active Ubuntu community (http:///www.ubuntuforums.org/ of http://ubuntuguide.org/) this will take you the same amount of time as to visit Cnet or any other site to search for Windows programs. Then install Automatix, start it and install any program you want!
July 14th, 2007
You are a fucking idiot, STFU.
July 14th, 2007
“Thankfully not Jonathan Schlaffer” is my hero
August 20th, 2007
Don’t worry guys!!! People like the one starting the post are dying out. Those that can’t get more out of their pc’s than just clicking next..next…next…finished. Some time later; “oh my computer is running so slow”. Tech comes in and viruses, trojans, and all that garbage galore rages in such pc. Just give it time; the newer generations are demanding more and more from their pc’s and Linux in the only solution.
August 30th, 2007
All these Linux zealots here make me puke. What a horrible bunch of whiny babies. Reminds me of the Amiga community years ago. Yeah, I had one, and while it was a superior piece of hardware, it fell far behind in the market.
Like Windows or not, it’s a standard. With Windows, I can use commercial software, or a wide assortment of open source programs, and they all work. When I was a teenager popping pimples, nothing made me happier than to create my own Arexx Scripts and type into a shell window all day. But you know what? Computers have always been about PROGRESS. Doing things in new and better ways. The new way is point and click install, configure, and run software.
The very idea you have to even TOUCH a command prompt in Linux is exactly why it’s a flop. Yes, Linux is great if you have a large number of machines in a server environment or you are a hardcore programmer, but the rest of us users want something a lot more solid.
Kind of sad to me, that an open source operating system isn’t even original. It’s based from Unix? Please. 1969 was a long time ago. Throw the punch cards away and start developing something new. If Linux was a made from scratch, original OS that could run Windows apps and it’s own apps natively, that would be something. But, it’s not, so it will always be like the Amiga…. in the background. Known by only a few, mastered by even fewer. Grow up people.
The truth is, Linux is derived from Unix, which itself is an old dog that had to be beaten into doing new tricks. But because you people are so in love with it you don’t’ really see it as that. Maybe that’s the problem with being in love with a tool… you become blind to it’s flaws.
November 21st, 2007
Mac OSX is Unix-based, too. Does that mean that OSX is also “an old dog that had to be beaten into doing new tricks”? I’m not necessarily a fan of Mac OSX, but I don’t think a lot of people who beat the “Linux is based on Unix, which is teh ancient and teh suxors” drum realize that OSX is based on Unix also…
December 31st, 2007
Ok, go play with Windows, made by a company who shows you how to shut down something with the “Start” button. Ubuntu can run most .exe programs with a Windows emulator. At least I know that when something isn’t responding, I can click on it and force-quit it, rather than waiting 10-20 minutes after clicking the end task button for the “TASK” to actually end. Then I’d probably realize, “Oh my! All my processes are running in the background even after turning them off? Woopsies!”
December 31st, 2007
Oh, I almost forgot. Let’s bring in GeekSquad (dey gatz dem lo rates lololl!!!!111one) and see how many trojans are multiplying themselves in the registry while creating new roots!
February 2nd, 2008
Thanks for sharing
March 18th, 2008
Well, I am a network administrator. I have worked with Microsoft products since MS DOS 4.1 and Windows 3.1. My first look at a linux distribution was RedHat 4.2. I have seen another linux distributions since then (RedHat, Mandrake – now Mandriva, OpenSuse, Ubuntu – and variants, Fedora). Now at my work the servers came with Fedora 6, while the workstations with Windows Vista Ultimate. I think I know a bit about computers, as I have worked or learned also with another operating systems (eg. Solaris, Unix, and others less known). But after my comparison between Windows Vista, older variants of Windows and various linux distrbution, I think (and that is my opinion, nothing else) that Windows Vista is not ready for the average user. It may be in some two or three years, after one or two service packs and countless updates. And Windows Vista does not recognizes automatically my home soundcard, the usb sticks, digitally photo cameras, even usb mouses (or mice? don’t know exactly), whereas the live CD-s of Ubuntu and OpenSuse does. Well, I think for the average user the fact that he or she is not able to use even the mouse will be very frustating, and sure he or she will not know what to do (like installing new usb drivers – in windows, without using the mouse, because is not working), so Windows Vista is very far away to be “ready for the most”, even coming from Microsoft. And no, I am not a Linux fan, geek or whatever. And nor Windows, or another operating system. I just want an operating system to do what I command it to do, not allowing it to have the initiative (well, similarly will be a driver wanting to turn left, but his/her “intelligent car” will say “no, you must turn right”). And I think that right now Linux will be the operating system to allow me to drive the computer, not the other way around, like is necessary with Microsoft Windows (and if you don’t like some distribution for some reason, you are free to use another). I have seen Mac OS, but no Mac OS X, so I will say nothing about it – all I know about it is that will work only on Apple/MacIntosh hardware.
August 6th, 2008
Wat the hell…wow i wonder whats easier…open web browser search for program…download…double click…read stupid directions…press next ten million times…or wait…wait…
aptitude install ?
dont ask me but i think the second way is easier….but only a noob like u would say that
April 29th, 2009
I’ve bought the 1521 laptop a couple of days ago. What can I say?
It’s perfect. The batteries works up to 4 hours (if you power off
the wireless interfaces). Also, I was lucky enough to get the model
without that TrueLife glossy screen. The bad thing is that the laptop
only comes with Windows Vista, and therefore has only Vista drivers.
It was somehow hard to find the Windows XP drivers for all presented
devices, but finally I have found them all.
Again – this laptop is just perfect.